Moral alternatives to modern culture

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
19 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Moral alternatives to modern culture

fschmidt
Administrator
This post was updated on .
Modern culture is evil.  What are the alternatives to modern culture?  Before discussing alternatives that I think can work, I will discuss alternatives that don't work.

Politics doesn't work.  Moral people are an insignificant minority in all nations today.  And never in history has a nation been made moral through politics.  Politics is useful in a society formed by moral people.  In such a society, politics can help implement the will of these moral people.  This is how America worked before it became evil.  But in an evil society, politics is just a contest for power, nothing more.

Modern Christianity doesn't work.  Modern Christianity is all faith and no works, which means no morality.  The main practical difference between a modern Christian and an atheist is that the modern Christian violates the third commandment while the atheist doesn't, making the atheist slightly less sinful than the modern Christian.  I discussed in detail what went wrong with modern Christianity in The Rise and Fall of Christian Culture.

Modern Catholicism doesn't work.  To a large degree, what went wrong with Protestantism has infected Catholicism.  The current Pope is a total disaster.  But Catholicism was essentially doomed by the Second Vatican Council which fully gave in to modern culture.

Orthodox Christianity is like a better version of Catholicism, but it still doesn't work.  Mainstream Orthodox Christianity does not work in the West because it is too weak of a religion to withstand modern culture.  This can be seen by the fact that the sexes are mixed in service.  Historically, Orthodox Christianity has always partnered with a government that supports it, so this seems to be the condition in which it works.  But a religion that depends on the government is not a reliable religion, and isn't a religion that can improve a society.  This can be seen in the fact that Orthodox Christianity has never produced a highly productive culture.

White nationalism doesn't work.  No racial movement in history has succeeded without religious backing.  White nationalists who want success should copy the most successful racial movement, namely Judaism.  This means that white nationalists need to pick a religion for their movement.  Until they do so, they are a hopeless bunch.

That completes the important options that don't work.  Now let's consider options that work.  History shows that all good cultures are supported by a good religion.  How can one judge if a religion is good and strong enough to resist modern culture?  One superficial way to judge that I have found to be very effective is just to ask whether men and women sit separately during religious service.  Religions that have maintained this separation have shown that they are strong enough to resist modern culture

Orthodox Judaism works marginally if you are a racist jew.  The problem with Judaism is that it is fundamentally an evil parasitic dishonest religion, and this causes periodic holocausts against its followers.  But in spite of this, there always seems to be a remnant that carries on, which is why I call this marginally working.

Conservative Mennonism is an alternative for Christians.  All of traditional Anabaptism has potential, but the conservative Mennonites seem the best.  They don't reject all modern technology as Old Order Anabaptists do (like the Amish), but they still do a good job keeping modern culture out.  They are serious Christians, serious about following Jesus's teachings.  The book Brethren Thinking written by an unconventional Old Order Anabaptist provides a highly intelligent introduction to Anabaptist thinking.  The book An Introduction to Old Order and Conservative Mennonite Groups provides a good overview of the Mennonite variants.  I specifically recommend the Mennonite groups classified as "Ultra-Conservatives" on page 162 of this book.  You can find a Mennonite church near you using this map.  You will notice that most churches are far from urban areas, and this reflects the key weakness of the Mennonites.  Their religion is not strong enough to survive in urban areas.  If you have any more questions about Mennonites, you can ask on this Mennonite forum.

I consider Islam to be the clear leading alternative to modern culture.  Islam works everywhere, in both urban and rural areas.  It is a huge and growing religion.  Most of Islam seems quite resistant to modern culture.  All decent people should at least visit their local mosque so that they can judge Islam for themselves.

Some of us find the supernatural beliefs of Christianity and Islam hard to accept.  For us, there is another alternative which is to follow the Old Testament under another good religion.  This is the Mikraite concept.  I follow the Old Testament under Islam.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moral alternatives to modern culture

fschmidt
Administrator
I have updated the section on Islam, moving it from options that don't work to options that work.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moral alternatives to modern culture

Andromeda07734
In reply to this post by fschmidt
It has been said that Islam is "Judaism Lite".

I then had the idea of "Islam Lite" - Secular Koranism.

http://thevoiceofreason-ann.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/secular-koranism.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moral alternatives to modern culture

Andromeda07734
In reply to this post by fschmidt
Why do you call Orthodox Judaism "racist"?

It is after all possible for a gentile to convert to Orthodox Judaism, even if the process is long and arduous.  
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moral alternatives to modern culture

fschmidt
Administrator
Andromeda07734 wrote
Why do you call Orthodox Judaism "racist"?

It is after all possible for a gentile to convert to Orthodox Judaism, even if the process is long and arduous.
Racist just means discriminating by race.  Someone who is racially jewish gets a free pass to Judaism regardless of his beliefs or actions, while other races have to go through a long process.  This is racist.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moral alternatives to modern culture

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by Andromeda07734
Secularism doesn't work.  You call your site "Voice of Reason" but in fact most people don't have the intelligence to reason, so they shouldn't even try.  Instead, they should respect tradition and religion.  If they do try to reason, the result will be nothing more than rationalization of their instincts, because this is all that they are intellectually capable of doing.  So then the question becomes how to make such people respect religion over their own dysfunctional minds.  The first answer is to have a powerful alpha-male god since humans (and most primates) are wired to respect an alpha-male leader.  I would say that the god of Islam is the most alpha of all gods.  And the second answer is to provide religious exercises for people to remember their religion.  The Old Testament provides the sabbath which is useful for intelligent people who can use this time to think, but is less useful for those of low intelligence.  Again, Islam is optimal here with its 5 daily prayers which consist of repeatedly bowing before God, the act of bowing being the primary expression of submission for humans (and most primates).  So I would say that Islam today isn't far from ideal, it just needs a few tweaks to make it less fatalistic.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moral alternatives to modern culture

Peter
Administrator
While intelligent Muslims make good Mikraites, Mikraites will make bad Muslims.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 7:47 PM fschmidt [via Mikraite] <[hidden email]> wrote:




Secularism doesn't work.  You call your site "Voice of Reason" but in fact most people don't have the intelligence to reason, so they shouldn't even try.  Instead, they should respect tradition and religion.  If they do try to reason, the result will be nothing more than rationalization of their instincts, because this is all that they are intellectually capable of doing.  So then the question becomes how to make such people respect religion over their own dysfunctional minds.  The first answer is to have a powerful alpha-male god since humans (and most primates) are wired to respect an alpha-male leader.  I would say that the god of Islam is the most alpha of all gods.  And the second answer is to provide religious exercises for people to remember their religion.  The Old Testament provides the sabbath which is useful for intelligent people who can use this time to think, but is less useful for those of low intelligence.  Again, Islam is optimal here with its 5 daily prayers which consist of repeatedly bowing before God, the act of bowing being the primary expression of submission for humans (and most primates).  So I would say that Islam today isn't far from ideal, it just needs a few tweaks to make it less fatalistic.























If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:






To start a new topic under Talk, email [hidden email]


To unsubscribe from Mikraite, click here.


NAML

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moral alternatives to modern culture

Andromeda07734
In what way is Islam fatalistic?

What tweaks would you suggest to Islam?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Secular Koranism is a legal system, not a belief system

Andromeda07734
In reply to this post by Peter
I don't think you quite understand the nature of Secular Koranism. It is a legal system infused with Koranic principles whose rules people of faith and no faith will know because it is the law. People obey the law not because they agree with the law, but because they fear the law's punishment. We are already accustomed to obeying laws we do not agree with. Secular Koranism does not expect everyone to agree with it and support it or even believe in God, but if it is what their government has adopted, that is what those subject to the authority of the state will have to obey, or else be punished if caught.

Many will argue that Secular Koranism authoritarian, which I do not deny since all laws are coercive and meant to be coercive, but it is certainly not totalitarian.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moral alternatives to modern culture

Andromeda07734
In reply to this post by Peter
"While intelligent Muslims make good Mikraites, Mikraites will make bad Muslims."

Why do you say that?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Secular Koranism is a legal system, not a belief system

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by Andromeda07734
Yes it wasn't clear to me that Secular Koranism is just a legal system.  In that case, I am honestly not that interested in it because I don't think legal systems matter nearly as much as religion.  And even if you managed to impose a sound legal system on a corrupt people, those people would soon corrupt that legal system.  Religion determines how people think, and this is what really matters.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moral alternatives to modern culture

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by Andromeda07734
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Secular Koranism is a legal system, not a belief system

Andromeda07734
In reply to this post by fschmidt
Once you have a laws that reflect God's morality, you lay the foundation for belief again. We must not put the cart before the horse.  

It is easier to argue the case for patriarchy to nationalists now that nationalism has become fashionable again than to convert a nation who are mostly Islamophobes, non-Christians, non-Jews and atheists into any religion.  
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Secular Koranism is a legal system, not a belief system

fschmidt
Administrator
Show me one successful culture in history that wasn't based on a strong religion.  There isn't any.  Religion is a necessary condition for a successful culture.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Secular Koranism is a legal system, not a belief system

Andromeda07734
Not all religions have deities. Buddhism is an atheist religion.  

Religion is necessary because it is necessarily and logically the basis of our laws, which have to be respected to be enforced and applied.  

All religions are but political ideologies.

Liberalism is a political ideology whose principles go against what are said to be God's laws. Since Liberalism is about feminism, sexual immorality and gender confusion ie gay marriage and unisex toilets it will dismantle whatever social cohesion there is that remains in the West.

It is now hoped that Liberalism will be replaced by nationalism and nationalism has many Conservative ideas. Unfortunately, Conservatism is not a political ideology that has principles that are easily discernible and definable.

If we want social conservatism, it can be found in the Bible and Koran both of which promote patriarchal moral values.  

As you have already said, Christianity is kaput and Judaism is for Jews only with a long and arduous conversion process that will put off most people who are overwhelmingly atheist and irreligious anyway. What remains therefore is an Islamic theocracy.  

When you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the answer.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Secular Koranism is a legal system, not a belief system

fschmidt
Administrator
I think you are missing what religion is about.  Religion has these elements:

1.  A shared narrative, usually found in sacred texts, which is taught to children and shapes the thinking of members of the religion.

2.  Rituals.  Some rituals are shared to strengthen community bonding.  Other rituals are exercises in self-discipline that is required for a person to behave morally.

3.  A moral code.  This moral code is somehow justified in the religion and members of the religion are constantly pressured to follow it.

Without these elements, there can be no morality.  Laws are almost irrelevant.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Secular Koranism is a legal system, not a belief system

Andromeda07734
How are laws "almost irrelevant" if they punish immoral behaviour?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moral alternatives to modern culture

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by fschmidt
Moved to "Chatter" because it seems to me now that only Islam works.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Moral alternatives to modern culture

fschmidt
Administrator
In reply to this post by fschmidt
I updated this post to reflect my current thinking.